Armenian holocaust research
This IS A Post That the Melungeon Heritage Research Group Does Not Want You to Read. This post was deleted and Jay has been banned from the MHRG Yahoo Group.
I have written permission to post this essay. The author is Jay and he is responding to Curtis Christy.
RE: Armenian holocaust research
Curtis,
Thank you for your lengthy reply, and I apologize for my tardiness in acknowledging your response; alas work gives no quarter to personal interests. And by the way, just call me Jay; John is the given name and John Edgar was already taken for my sign on. I'd like to say that I've enjoyed reading much of the free exchange of ideas on this site, and like to put my two-cents worth in:
To begin, in response to your inquiry, I am as Melungeon, if not more so, than any of those corresponding in this group. Let me explain.
The assumptions in your post, which I've also found far and wide within this group as well as on various Melungeon websites, bulletin boards, etc., seem to posit that the Melungeons are a distinct group, race, or sub-species (pick your term) that compose a lineage of people unto their own; unique to the American continent. I've variously found them attributed to Moors, American Indians, Turks, North Africans,the ubiquitous "Eurasians", Portuguese, and assorted other so called "peoples". I submit that you are possibly right or possibly equally wrong in establishing your genetic identity. That is because you will find such mixes,(albeit, in various degrees)around the world. My best guess is that you will never know your "true" genetic identity, because since mankind discovered the ability to travel, we have been commingling our genes around the globe, for hundreds of thousands of years and thousands of generations. I find it difficult to truly fault you for your desire to be unique, as it is human nature, and I've seen the same tribal thinking from Armenia to Africa to Australia; a relic of our less sophisticated, animalistic past.
Melungeon genealogical backtracking seems to be artificially stuck at various points, i.e with the Turks or Greeks on Drake's crew, or with the Turkish nation, or the intermixed groups in Appalachia, or at whatever point you wish to stop. Personally I choose to take my genealogical heritage back a bit further, and acknowledge that we've all been spit out of the same big hodgepodge of interbreeding with phenotypic differences generally related to the geographic "home" of our less mobile ancestors. The notion that humans are anything other than the same species (or race, or ethnicity-however you want to break it down) with the same common ancestor(s) smacks of our egocentric need as humans to regard "our group" as something special. This a purely social construct. Simply put, we are all the same animal; you can just slice up the DNA to suit your particular world view. In other words, we like are a bunch of chocolate chip cookies and you seem to be going back to figure out if you are the sugar or the flour. Maybe you are full of chips.
That said, there is nothing inherently wrong with social constructs; take the Kiwanis club or the Republican Party, or the Russian nation for example. These are people with unique needs or want banding together for a common interest. But to base that social banding on an artificial, or even real, racial construct seems to move our society in a regression to tribalism, which is what generally leads to most of the trouble we have on this planet. Exhibit 1 – Please see Iraq, or for that matter, anywhere else in the Middle East, or most of Africa; especially Kenya as of late.
One last thought that comes to mind from your post. You are pretty confident in your assertion that the Turks (or Ottomans) are a bloodthirsty people. A broad assumption about any people, but I can assure you that the Turks have no special place in hell for the Armenian Genocide. There will be plenty of company there since we as a race are a bloodthirsty lot with a history of wholesale slaughter that continues to this day. Darfur anyone? Study a little history(back beyond what there happen to be pictures of) and you will discover that Armenia was invaded time and again, beginning in the historical record by the Hittites. Maybe the latest, victimized Armenians (who are Assyrians and a bunch of other "people") owe the Hittites (and their hodgepodge of "races" an apology for slaughtering them back around the 7th century B.C. Or maybe we just move on and try not to kill each other so much in the future.
Jay
From: edgarjohn40
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 9:08 PM
Subject:xxxxxxxxx Re: Armenian holocaust research
Wow, so much to respond to, but I have to start with this post because it seems you must have stayed up pretty late to come up with such a witty retort. Akmed, that is pretty original. Well done, sir.
I especially enjoyed the juxtaposition of "Akmed", evidently meant to be an ethnic slur or otherwise degrading in some manner, with your follow on denial of hating Turks. Maybe you just hate all those OTHER dirty A-rabs, but not Turks, and I'm misconstruing what you meant by calling me "Akmed".
Sorry to disappoint the suspicious hate mongers in the bunch, I'm not Turkish, I'm American, the only "people" I choose to identify with, because I believe in the founding principles of this country, mainly the freedom to express any though I wish (which I enjoy heartily and, by the way, will defend to the death your privilege to the same right). But I digress. Notice I didn't say Turkish-American, Swedish-American, Melungeon-American, Troll-American or any other hyphenated semi-American. Just American. Brings me to another point; you guys are really wrapped up in my genealogy as if that has any bearing on the issue of this MHA group supporting Turkey and the Turks. Maybe if one of you can concisely tell me what it is that you want a Melungeon to be, I can tell you how many different ways I can dig up ancestors to fit your model dp that my words have more importance. Because if I'm one of you I must be special.
By the way, I did meet a Turk once; she was a student here who was dating my best friend (who is also not a Turk, before you get off on that track). She was pretty nice and I'm pretty sure she never killed an Armenian. Nor do I think that she owes any Armenian an apology since the murderers who slaughtered them are all dead and gone, as is the government of the Ottoman Empire, which did the killing. Did I mention that the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist in 1922, in the wake of the genocide? You are asking this Melungeon Heritage Association to cut all ties with anything having to do with Turkey, since Turkey won't acknowledge the Genocide. I will now ask YOU to renounce your American citizenship because George W. hasn't
apologized to China for Truman freeing the Japanese doctors from Unit 731 in exchange for their human experimentation data. Or do you support human experimentation? That would be the same logic at work. Remember, the son in not responsible for the sins of the father.
I have lived and worked hand in hand with the Armenian people in Armenia. I like Armenia and many of the people I met there. I know the anger and pain they feel to this day over the genocide and seizure of their lands. And I've felt their hatred of the Turks. But before you deify the Armenians, perhaps you should ask an Azerbaijani
what they think of the poor Armenians. Read up a little on the Armenian occupation of Nagorno-Karabakh and the alleged massacres by Armenian troops. The Armenian lobby here in America doesn't like to bring that up too much. Be careful throwing rocks in your glass house.
If any of you would have truly read and comprehended the entirety what I wrote instead of having a knee jerk reaction to the "I am a Melungeon" opening, you would have understood that my point is not that I truly claim to be a Melungeon descendant, or not to be one (if there even is such a thing) but that it is completely irrelevant to the entire discussion of the Armenian Genocide. Where do we start with the apologies and where do they end? Remember to feel shame tonight before you go to sleep for your role in slavery, or was that your great-granddad on Aunt Mabel's side three times removed who fought for the South. Doesn't matter, it is still your fault.
Well, I gotta run. Have to check my Turkish Embassy e-mail to see if they have my one-way ticket ready yet…I hear they have great robes there, look forward to the trip. I'll say hi to all the Akmeds for you.
Jay
I have written permission to post this essay. The author is Jay and he is responding to Curtis Christy.
RE: Armenian holocaust research
Curtis,
Thank you for your lengthy reply, and I apologize for my tardiness in acknowledging your response; alas work gives no quarter to personal interests. And by the way, just call me Jay; John is the given name and John Edgar was already taken for my sign on. I'd like to say that I've enjoyed reading much of the free exchange of ideas on this site, and like to put my two-cents worth in:
To begin, in response to your inquiry, I am as Melungeon, if not more so, than any of those corresponding in this group. Let me explain.
The assumptions in your post, which I've also found far and wide within this group as well as on various Melungeon websites, bulletin boards, etc., seem to posit that the Melungeons are a distinct group, race, or sub-species (pick your term) that compose a lineage of people unto their own; unique to the American continent. I've variously found them attributed to Moors, American Indians, Turks, North Africans,the ubiquitous "Eurasians", Portuguese, and assorted other so called "peoples". I submit that you are possibly right or possibly equally wrong in establishing your genetic identity. That is because you will find such mixes,(albeit, in various degrees)around the world. My best guess is that you will never know your "true" genetic identity, because since mankind discovered the ability to travel, we have been commingling our genes around the globe, for hundreds of thousands of years and thousands of generations. I find it difficult to truly fault you for your desire to be unique, as it is human nature, and I've seen the same tribal thinking from Armenia to Africa to Australia; a relic of our less sophisticated, animalistic past.
Melungeon genealogical backtracking seems to be artificially stuck at various points, i.e with the Turks or Greeks on Drake's crew, or with the Turkish nation, or the intermixed groups in Appalachia, or at whatever point you wish to stop. Personally I choose to take my genealogical heritage back a bit further, and acknowledge that we've all been spit out of the same big hodgepodge of interbreeding with phenotypic differences generally related to the geographic "home" of our less mobile ancestors. The notion that humans are anything other than the same species (or race, or ethnicity-however you want to break it down) with the same common ancestor(s) smacks of our egocentric need as humans to regard "our group" as something special. This a purely social construct. Simply put, we are all the same animal; you can just slice up the DNA to suit your particular world view. In other words, we like are a bunch of chocolate chip cookies and you seem to be going back to figure out if you are the sugar or the flour. Maybe you are full of chips.
That said, there is nothing inherently wrong with social constructs; take the Kiwanis club or the Republican Party, or the Russian nation for example. These are people with unique needs or want banding together for a common interest. But to base that social banding on an artificial, or even real, racial construct seems to move our society in a regression to tribalism, which is what generally leads to most of the trouble we have on this planet. Exhibit 1 – Please see Iraq, or for that matter, anywhere else in the Middle East, or most of Africa; especially Kenya as of late.
One last thought that comes to mind from your post. You are pretty confident in your assertion that the Turks (or Ottomans) are a bloodthirsty people. A broad assumption about any people, but I can assure you that the Turks have no special place in hell for the Armenian Genocide. There will be plenty of company there since we as a race are a bloodthirsty lot with a history of wholesale slaughter that continues to this day. Darfur anyone? Study a little history(back beyond what there happen to be pictures of) and you will discover that Armenia was invaded time and again, beginning in the historical record by the Hittites. Maybe the latest, victimized Armenians (who are Assyrians and a bunch of other "people") owe the Hittites (and their hodgepodge of "races" an apology for slaughtering them back around the 7th century B.C. Or maybe we just move on and try not to kill each other so much in the future.
Jay
From: edgarjohn40
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 9:08 PM
Subject:xxxxxxxxx Re: Armenian holocaust research
Wow, so much to respond to, but I have to start with this post because it seems you must have stayed up pretty late to come up with such a witty retort. Akmed, that is pretty original. Well done, sir.
I especially enjoyed the juxtaposition of "Akmed", evidently meant to be an ethnic slur or otherwise degrading in some manner, with your follow on denial of hating Turks. Maybe you just hate all those OTHER dirty A-rabs, but not Turks, and I'm misconstruing what you meant by calling me "Akmed".
Sorry to disappoint the suspicious hate mongers in the bunch, I'm not Turkish, I'm American, the only "people" I choose to identify with, because I believe in the founding principles of this country, mainly the freedom to express any though I wish (which I enjoy heartily and, by the way, will defend to the death your privilege to the same right). But I digress. Notice I didn't say Turkish-American, Swedish-American, Melungeon-American, Troll-American or any other hyphenated semi-American. Just American. Brings me to another point; you guys are really wrapped up in my genealogy as if that has any bearing on the issue of this MHA group supporting Turkey and the Turks. Maybe if one of you can concisely tell me what it is that you want a Melungeon to be, I can tell you how many different ways I can dig up ancestors to fit your model dp that my words have more importance. Because if I'm one of you I must be special.
By the way, I did meet a Turk once; she was a student here who was dating my best friend (who is also not a Turk, before you get off on that track). She was pretty nice and I'm pretty sure she never killed an Armenian. Nor do I think that she owes any Armenian an apology since the murderers who slaughtered them are all dead and gone, as is the government of the Ottoman Empire, which did the killing. Did I mention that the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist in 1922, in the wake of the genocide? You are asking this Melungeon Heritage Association to cut all ties with anything having to do with Turkey, since Turkey won't acknowledge the Genocide. I will now ask YOU to renounce your American citizenship because George W. hasn't
apologized to China for Truman freeing the Japanese doctors from Unit 731 in exchange for their human experimentation data. Or do you support human experimentation? That would be the same logic at work. Remember, the son in not responsible for the sins of the father.
I have lived and worked hand in hand with the Armenian people in Armenia. I like Armenia and many of the people I met there. I know the anger and pain they feel to this day over the genocide and seizure of their lands. And I've felt their hatred of the Turks. But before you deify the Armenians, perhaps you should ask an Azerbaijani
what they think of the poor Armenians. Read up a little on the Armenian occupation of Nagorno-Karabakh and the alleged massacres by Armenian troops. The Armenian lobby here in America doesn't like to bring that up too much. Be careful throwing rocks in your glass house.
If any of you would have truly read and comprehended the entirety what I wrote instead of having a knee jerk reaction to the "I am a Melungeon" opening, you would have understood that my point is not that I truly claim to be a Melungeon descendant, or not to be one (if there even is such a thing) but that it is completely irrelevant to the entire discussion of the Armenian Genocide. Where do we start with the apologies and where do they end? Remember to feel shame tonight before you go to sleep for your role in slavery, or was that your great-granddad on Aunt Mabel's side three times removed who fought for the South. Doesn't matter, it is still your fault.
Well, I gotta run. Have to check my Turkish Embassy e-mail to see if they have my one-way ticket ready yet…I hear they have great robes there, look forward to the trip. I'll say hi to all the Akmeds for you.
Jay
Labels: holocaust
posted by Helen Campbell @ 11:32 PM
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